Liberation
Talks with Babaji
What is the meaning of life?
Meaning of life is to experience the world and then to remove all the memories of the experience to attain eternal peace. So, experience and eternal peace are two objects of life. Why? Because it is in human nature. We want both. Animals only know about experience. The concept of eternal peace is not in their minds.
Could you clarify the difference between enlightenment and liberation?
Enlightenment is knowledge attained through the pure mind. In each samadhi state the mind purifies and the mind is capable to see more reality of an object. In a dual state there are four levels of samadhi. In non-dual state there is one.
What are the different levels of samadhi?
Samprajnata = dual state. Savitarka samadhi = samadhi with gross object. Savichara samadhi = samadhi with subtle object. Sananda samadhi = the mind is the object. Sasmita samadhi = the ego is the object. In the non-dual state, kaivalya = complete isolated state.
When one is seeking the truth in the Kali Yuga and doesn’t attain, is it possible to wait for the Satya Yuga?
Liberation is not time-bound. It can happen now or after several births. Liberation from what? We use this term “liberation” but we don’t think on its meaning. We are in a prison of our own self-created desires and attachments which are the means of enjoyment. If desires and attachments in the present, together with all its past memories, are removed, liberation is right there. Can it happen to everyone? In time, but not all at once. Why don’t we get non-attached when we know it’s the cause of our bondage? It’s because worldly attachments are real and liberation is just a theory for us.
If everyone eventually gets enlightened, then would people stop coming?
Bhoga and apavarga (experience and liberation from all experiences) are both in human nature. Bhoga is our present action and past memories. Apavarga is in the future when the past and present is disconnected from the future. If every person gets liberated, then there will be no creation. The lower species will evolve to higher stages. So it is impossible that some day everyone will get liberated. The process of evolution and involution is eternal.
It’s said to be easy to seek liberation by focusing our attention on God. Krishna says, “focus your mind on Me.” After one has focused the mind on God, is it easy to attain liberation?
Suppose God is sitting on the other side of the mountain. You climb the mountain with much effort. When you reach the top, then just slide down. In climbing your mind is one-pointed on the idea of God.
Yet the Yoga Sutras says that Yoga is controlling of the thought waves in the mind, which sounds like there is effort all the way to the end?
There is effort in both. Focusing attention on God is not so easy. The mind is pulled by so many egocentric desires all the time.
Could we reach the top and then stay there without sliding?
On reaching the top, the mind is so purified that it automatically merges in God.
Does the Bodhisattva ideal not recognize the dual aspect? In non-dual state, who can go or come?
(Nods yes.) Dualistic. We can say partial liberation and final liberation. According to the Gita, in final liberation the wheel of birth and death stops.
Could one reach a high level of enlightenment and a partial liberation, then stay and serve while holding back from final liberation?
Holding back is not in one’s hand. Unless one keeps the ego.
Isn’t it a higher ideal to serve others than to get free?
It’s a great motivation to serve others whether enlightened or not enlightened. In the Gita it is said “what is left for a liberated person except to serve others?”
In full liberation the ego dissolves completely? Then would there be no body, no way to live in this world?
Prarabdha karma still works. Like a fruit about to ripen. If kept in a basket it will continue to ripen. But one time will come when it will be ripened completely. So those enlightened sages may take birth to work out the prarabdha karma. Enlightenment is in degrees. If we say liberated one, then the question of using ego doesn’t arise because that being is functioning by the force of nature.
Service and meditation are called two wings on the bird rising to the divine. Sometimes people get out of balance. They might meditate a lot but have no love for others, for example. Is it a completely individual thing or is there a balance that should be kept?
All humans are not alike. They have different kinds of understandings, faith and belief. They create their own path to reach for the divine. How to balance? Everyone sticks to his or her own path. Some believe meditation is the only way. Some believe service is the only way. Any belief will lead to the same goal. An atheist believes everything is right here; there is no God. Live a virtuous life and you will attain peace. It cannot be contradicted. Those who cry “God, God” they can’t prove there is God. Those who say “no God,” they can’t prove there is no God. So again both are the same. But when the mind is purified by any method, the result is the same “eternal peace” or God, whatever you name it.
When the devotees of Christ and Krishna worship to get to heaven or Vaikuntha, is there really a place where they go?
I don’t know but the idea is charming because it fulfills the idea “I may live forever.” We want to live forever no matter how we live. If God comes here and says “anyone who wants liberation now but you have to die now,” no one would raise their hand. It’s so beautiful here. What is in liberation? Somewhere sitting in a dark place. Heaven and hell are living in virtuous and non-virtuous ways.
What is the best way to approach the disturbances to meditation, when ego itself is desiring apavarga and still is entertaining the interrupting thoughts?
The aspirant wants liberation but doesn’t want to work for it whole-heartedly. If we want to win in a contest, for example, volleyball, every player is completely concentrated. They become one body. Because the want is so intense. Liberation is a philosophy: maybe true, maybe not. What will we get by liberation? As long as we don’t get some experience of liberation, the mind will create thoughts. When there is intense faith, intense dispassion and firm aim, worldly thoughts will not disturb the meditation.
Could you share your personal feeling about God, if it is not too personal?
The eternal peace. In that peace, everything shines up in its reality. No illusion. God is defined by three words: Sat (existence), Chit (consciousness), Ananda (bliss or peace).